The Quest For the Ring: 2008-09-28

Tuesday, October 7, 2008

Return of Nuggets 1: Forum #2 Comments From April, 2008, Part 2

Forum commentary I did from March 2008 through July 2008, when I didn't have time to do the detailed and extensive reports that I like to do, is being posted in early October, 2008. The primary themes are how the Nuggets are blowing a great (and expensive!) opportunity to play the game of basketball in such a way that respects the sport and that takes as much advantage as possible of who they have on the roster. The 2006-09 Nuggets have turned out to be an excellent case study of how not to run a basketball team; many things you should not do if you are a basketball manager or coach can be identified from what the Nuggets actually did during these years.

In these comments, do not look for the usual huge amount of detail and proof that you see in the ordinary releases here at Nuggets 1. Some of this is more like everyday conversation than like top quality sports writing. On the other hand, some of the comments do include some detailed reasoning and proof that I pride myself on in the primary reports I release.
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APRIL 2008 FORUM COMMENTARY ON THE NUGGETS, ESPECIALLY ABOUT THEIR MISTAKES

Your pro basketball publisher was aghast when Carmelo Anthony celebrated the Nuggts squeaking into the playoffs by partying most of the night and then weaving across traffic lanes while driving under the influence and getting pulled over and cited for driving under the influence. The following posts relate to the incident:
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I meant by "wild type of team" a team that has extreme inconsistency on both offense and defense from one game to the next, because roles and strategies are not clearly enough defined, and because specific tactics are few and far between. I didn't mean wild in the sense that you thought.

Guess what though? I honestly think that if you have a wild team in the sense I meant it, it can lead to a wild team in the sense that you are thinking of: players who are wild off the court. I bet anything you could prove a correlation between those two wilds.

On the other hand, you could have a team that is wild off the court but is not wild on the court, in basketball management terms.

But I don't think the Nuggets this year are more than slightly more wild off the court than the average NBA team, although that is just an educated hunch.
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Right now the situation is:

1. There was a traffic stop, which is a special type of arrest but is technically not a full scale arrest due to the light penalties associated with most traffic stops. It became more of a full scale arrest when Carmelo Anthony was booked. But it was "booked on suspicion" and there are as yet no formal charges and there may never be any charges.
2. This stop was on Interstate 25 in Denver. The time was about 5:23 am, so there was little traffic and relatively little risk of a car crash on the Interstate at the time, whether it was DWI, DUI, DWD (driving while distracted), or DWE (driving while exhausted).
3. Melo's car was drifting between lanes, but that drifting did not create a risk of an accident at the time, due to the light traffic, and because there is no report that there was a near crash of any kind. The drifting could have been caused by cell phone or CD player usage, or simply due to the driver being extremely tired. It is not a crime to be driving while extremely tired. It is a crime in New York State to drive while holding and talking on a cell phone, but that is not a crime in Colorado.
4. Melo cooperated completely including consenting to a blood test. Results are not expected for about two weeks.
5. According to a major news source, Anthony "failed a series of sobriety tests." However, failing of sobriety tests can be caused by someone being extremely tired alone, or by a combination of someone being extremely tired and very slightly inebriated, but below DWI and DUI levels.
6. There was no breathalyzer, which can instantly clear someone, but which is not trusted by many jurisdictions. Rather, there was a blood test, which of course everyone would think of as reliable.
7. There is still today a huge legal difference between DUI and DWI, because DUI is considered to be only mildly dangerous, while DWI is just plain dangerous. If this turns out to be DUI, it would be something that until about 20 years ago was considered a minor offense, but is now more serious as a result of the "War on Drugs" and the "War on Crime." Even today though, DUI is a much less serious offense than is DWI.
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8. Further developments to come, and questions surrounding them:

blood test results in two weeks: DWI, DUI, or Sober?
--What delay will there be, if any, between the results and any charges?
--The NBA can not suspend with just blood test results and no charges (yet) can they?
--If DUI, can the charges be bargained away?
--If charges are bargained away, could the NBA suspend for a game or two anyway? I highly doubt it.

If DUI and the charges are filed immediately
--Does the NBA have the right to suspend before there is a conviction or can they suspend just for charges?
--Will the NBA suspend at all, even on a conviction, for the relatively minor DUI offense?
--If the NBA suspends for a DUI conviction, but not on mere charges, it will be for games next season, because there is no way a conviction will happen so quickly that the Nuggets are still in the playoffs when it happens.

If DWI and the charges are filed immediately
--Does the NBA have the right to suspend before there is a conviction or can they suspend just for the charges?
--I am assuming a DWI conviction would generate a suspension. Anyone have any idea about how many games it would be?
--If the NBA suspends for a DWI conviction, but not on mere charges, it will be for games next season, because there is no way a conviction will happen so quickly that the Nuggets are still in the playoffs when it happens.

I don't trust the NBA on something like this. I wonder why? They do have a track record of being fair and evenhanded in their Nuggets punishments, don't they?

Anyone who knows reliable answers to any of the questions above regarding how the NBA would react to the various possiblities, please clue us in. Anyone know of any other recent DUI or DWI situations and how the League reacted?
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The Denver Coach clearly seems to think everything important is decided in advance. His lame excuses and his monthly win quotas are just about like something from a comedy movie. According to Karl, the Nuggets could not end up in the top 4 of the West despite being in the top 4 in talent. Why? It was inevitable, because the great tide of history dictated that little old Denver would not be able to reach the top 4.

Who knows how many specific reasons in total have been spinning around in his head, but here are some of them we know about:

--Melo's game is not well rounded enough, and Melo's personality is not quite mature enough.
--Iverson was changed from PG to SG many years ago for mysterious but valid reasons that must have something to do with Iverson's personality, and it would be futile to try to fight the tide of history to officially recognize AI as the PG for Denver this year. So AI can play PG but it can not be admitted in public that he does so, and he can not be designated as the PG, because you can't mess with history and tradition and personality like that.
--J.R. Smith is unqualified to start or to be a full scale NBA shooting guard by virtue of a deficient personality/character.
--Yakhouba Diawara somehow proved to have a personality too weak to avoid a more or less permanent benching.
--The Nuggets as a whole have a soft or wobbly "personality". When your team has that, you are automatically doomed.

To Karl, there are massive forces, such as tradition, history, destiny, "team personalities," and personalities of individual players, that determine results, and neither players nor a coaching staff can overcome those forces, so why should he or the assistant coaches get all worked up about trying to win each and every game?

Since he decided in advance that the Nuggets were not worthy of reaching the top 4, and since there is no telling how many reasons he has piled up for that, he does not believe he is responsible for the results. Nor would he feel responsible for making lineup, rotation, and other game management mistakes, assuming it could be proven to him that he made mistakes that cost the Nuggets. He would respond, like he always does when challenged, by saying the Nuggets would have ended up in almost exactly the same final result even if those decisions were made differently.

In other words, Mr. Karl has built himself a fortress to protect himself from ever accepting even the slightest responsibility for the Nuggets not reaching their true potential, which is final 4 in the West minimum. If he is ever fired he will not accept even a small shred of responsibility. Rather, he will look at his long career and say that he had to be a worthy basketball man simply because of how long his career lasted.

The trouble for him is, his reasons are neither logically sound nor truly explanatory in the real world. I'm sorry, but personalities do not decide who among the most talented teams actually reach the very top. And I'm sorry, but nothing is determined in advance unless you say it is. If you think you can't win, then you almost certainly will not win. If you are a coach who thinks that way, and you can't keep that a secret and coach as if you don't believe that, then you have failed as a coach. End of story.

It really doesn't matter much whether the Nuggets have become slackers or not, or to what extent Karl's strange beliefs have rubbed off on them. Because first and foremost they did not get what they needed.

The Nuggets came to the table with all the raw talent needed to be truly outstanding but with no basketball system and with little real confidence they could actually get to the top. They needed roles defined rationally, they needed a coherent offensive plan, they needed a few specific plays. Individual players needed protection from arbitrary and rhythm killing benchings. A few players just needed a little playing time. They didn't get any of those things.

Most of all they needed real confidence. The Nuggets are mostly players who grew up on the wrong side of the tracks, more so than on other teams. I used to think that most NBA teams are loaded with players who grew up on the wrong side of the tracks. In the last few years I found out that this is simply not true. But it is true in the case of the Nuggets, many of them come from straight from the ghetto. You run short on real confidence your whole life when you grow up that way.

How someone thinks is the most crucial part of that person's personality. What someone thinks results from how someone thinks. For a man who thinks personality is so important, Mr. Karl seems strangely ignorant of the power of positive thinking, or real confidence in other words. True, real confidence without the real potential to get the results is lame, but not having real confidence when you do have the real potential to get the results is both lame and idiotic.

Why is Melo out all night after the Nuggets squeak into the playoffs, only to be pulled over and suspected of DUI? Because he is so lacking in real confidence that he was worried the Nuggets would miss the playoffs, and it would be partly blamed on him, so when at least the Nuggets made the playoffs, he had to be out all night celebrating that the stress was over. The bigger the gap between where you are and where you are supposed to be, the more you irrationally over celebrate getting to that lower level.

The last 24 hours have been another wild ride on the Nuggets roller coaster, happy and sad at the same time. But mostly sad, really.
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The next posting will be commentary that was made during games against the Lakers in the playoff series. That posting is titled: "Return of Nuggets 1: Forum #2 Comments From Late April, 2008, Part 1".

Return of Nuggets 1: Forum #2 Comments From April, 2008

Return of Nuggets 1: Forum #2 Comments From Late March 2008, Part 5

One of the many fundamental problems with how you are attempting to prove this is by linking Karl and Brown's decisions. You lose all credibility when you do that.

Never let them see you sweat! My response was:

They were the exact same decisions. They both went against the majority of coaches who thought Iverson should be PG. The rest of the investigation is to try to find out what the exact circumstances were in Philadelphia in 1997. I am reasonably sure that Brown had more justification than Karl does, but did Brown have enough justification or not?
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And another attack on my preliminary evidence about Iverson being mis-coached:

Another fundamental problem that ruins your credibility is this discussion about what his HS and college coaches did with AI. What AI did in HS and college have zero impact on what he does in the NBA. The NBA game is a different animal from both HS and college and the position anyone plays at that level means nothing in regards to NBA success or failure.

My response:

I already explained that the coach counts were a preliminary or introductory evidence. And basketball is basketball, and you have exactly the same positions in high school and college as you have in the NBA, so to say that you can't use what happened in high school or college at all is going way, way too far.
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This guy will argue with anyone all night. He continues on with a possibly valid criticism that had to be shot down:

You are building volumes of circumstantial "evidence" that doesn't have any value and is all easily and quickly refuted. While you obviously believe it helps build your case, the reality is that it ruins your credibility.

It was shot down thusly:

It's preliminary evidence, it allows me to proceed with the project and to justify working to get the heavy duty evidence.

I don't have to have only slam dunk evidence. I am no longer trying to prove something that the majority automatically scoff at. Keep in mind that among some of the best fans of the Nuggets, fans who take the time to read Nuggets forums, you have the following:

1. % of Fans Who Think Iverson Should be the Point Guard: 50-70%
2. % of Fans Who Think the Iverson PG / Smith SG backcourt is better than the Carter PG / Iverson SG backcourt: 55-75%
3. % of Fans Who Think Karl should retire or be fired for his mistakes: 65-85%

These are conservative estimates. These percentages have been rising steadily over the course of this season.

If time permits, I am going to be setting up polls on various forums to confirm these estimates, which are based on extensive reading of relevant topics on various forums.
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You want to know why I think that Karl simply followed Brown's decision due to Brown being one of his best friends and one of his mentors?

Because Karl never seriously considered playing A.I. at the point when he lost his planned point guard for most of the season, and because Karl has been relying on A.I. for both scoring and playmaking with no concern at all for the style and tactical stuff that all the smartest basketball minds talk about on the internet. In other words, Karl has used Iverson exactly the way Brown used him, in every last detail. There hasn't been the slightest adjustment.

There is something very suspicious about that if you ask me, something that seems to go beyond Karl just not doing the smart thing.
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I was going through this thread one more time to see if I missed something that could be useful to me and I found this. Earlier when I read this, I didn't think it was significant, but now I do. So maybe this discussion was definitely worth about 3 hours after all.

Maybe only by accident, and I don't know whether you think that is what Karl has been thinking or not, but I think you may have hit upon the mindset of Brown and Karl. And this is what I was going to have a hell of a hard time to understand, because I don't think like they do. In fairness to me, I probably would have thought of this sooner or later, but it might have been later rather than sooner.

At this time, I think this may be at the root of at least the Karl decision and possibly the Brown decision also. We know that Brown and especially Karl are more concerned with the history, traditions and honor of basketball than they are about the nuts and bolts of winning games. To Karl, only the very best players and teams are really part of the history and traditions of basketball, ordinary players and teams are just along for the ride so to speak.

So it is the best players who will get whatever it is that Karl is willing to give as a gift for becoming history. And it is plausible that Karl decided to give A.I. as a gift the only position that he could give him without disrespecting the history and traditons of basketball, because Iverson is part of that gospel now. Iverson has played SG for so long that it would be violating a tradition of basketball to change it now.

Basketball is sort of like a religion to Karl, and playing A.I. at the point would be like violating one of the ten commandments. Karl may possibly have known that the Nuggets would have been better off with Iverson at PG, but he couldn't do it, because both starting Smith and playing AI at the point both would have violated the history, traditions, and honor of basketball, although for totally different reasons.

I guess it was worth the time after all, just barely though. Thanks.
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One last, important thought:

I was disturbed by the number of people claiming that "A.I. can't play PG." Now I realize that the real number is less than it appears. Because when some of those who say A.I. can't play PG say that, they mean it in the religious sense, that A.I. playing point would go against doctrine, against the glorious traditions and history of basketball. You can't mess with the legacy of a player like A.I., it violates things that should not be violated.

There had to be some explanation for the surprisingly large minority, of people saying "A.I. can't play PG." Apparently, some of you didn't mean it in the normal literal sense, you meant it in the sense that it would be going against tradition or basketball history or basketball doctrine for him to be assigned those responsibilities.

You meant it in the sense of the Lord of basketball speaking from the mountaintop, bellowing: "A.I. MUST ALWAYS PLAY 2-GUARD IN ACCORDANCE WITH MY REPRESENTATIVE ON EARTH, LARRY BROWN. NEVER ASSIGN AI TO POINT GUARD, MY SONS.

George Karl trembled and obeyed. (laugh out loud)

But why didn't you just come out and say that. If that's what you think, say it. You finally said it in a very indirect way, and maybe by accident, and he will most likely deny that is what he meant, whether or not that is what he meant. (Laugh out loud.)

I am out and I definitely will have no time to ever come back to this thread again, not even to read it. In fact, the only way I will ever spend this much time on any thread will be if there is a new error affecting the Nuggets this big and this damaging in the future. It may be a very long time before that happens. I did this because the Nuggets paid a huge price over this mistake. It's clear the trade was a mistake now in fact, and that has to be explained to my Nuggets fans readers. So I had to get to the bottom of it, or else I would not have been doing my full duty as a writer.

Today, I do a lot more than just issue "light and fluffy opinions" about what I cover under my own editorial auspices. I started out that way but I have expanded my efforts. As a result, I have dedicated readers around the World, especially in Australia, Germany, France, and of course Colorado.

If you want to agree or disagree further, follow the project as it goes along and post in upcoming Nuggets reports, but I won't have a lot of time to discuss, bui I will have some time here and there.
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This poll, on the question that most impacted the Nuggets tn 2007-08, is being posted on approximately 20 Nuggets forums. Combined results will be reported here sometime in April.
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DO NOT FAIL TO VOTE BECAUSE OF THE CURRENT VOTE TOTAL. Any of the choices can still win. These results are extremely early, the vote will be held open for at least 3 weeks, and the objective is to get at least 200 votes from the best and most informed Nuggets fans.

After 6-9 hours of voting on various forums, the combined vote as of now is:

Anthony Carter PG Allen Iverson SG........ 12 Votes
Allen Iverson PG J.R. Smith SG.............. 29 Votes
Allen Iverson PG Yakhouba Diawara SG........6 Votes

Return of Nuggets 1: Forum #2 Comments From Late March 2008, Part 4

Forum commentary I did from March 2008 through July 2008, when I didn't have time to do the detailed and extensive reports that I like to do, is being posted in early October, 2008. The primary themes are how the Nuggets are blowing a great (and expensive!) opportunity to play the game of basketball in such a way that respects the sport and that takes as much advantage as possible of who they have on the roster. The 2006-09 Nuggets have turned out to be an excellent case study of how not to run a basketball team; many things you should not do if you are a basketball manager or coach can be identified from what the Nuggets actually did during these years.

In these comments, do not look for the usual huge amount of detail and proof that you see in the ordinary releases here at Nuggets 1. Some of this is more like everyday conversation than like top quality sports writing. On the other hand, some of the comments do include some detailed reasoning and proof that I pride myself on in the primary reports I release.
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LATE MARCH 2008 FORUM COMMENTARY ON THE NUGGETS, ESPECIALLY ABOUT THEIR MISTAKES

I will use this thread to report the descovery of more and more evidence that the Nuggets more or less failed this year, at least in the relative sense, because the coaching staff played an inferior backcourt. All they needed was to get the backcourt right and they could have done as well as everyone expected, but they couldn't do it right.

The first entry for here is what you find when you take a look at the plus-minuses for all possible 2-player combinations:

Proof the Nuggets Blew It

Starting from the top, you can look for the first combination you find which is two guards. The first one, sure enoiugh, is the Allen Iverson / J.R. Smith combination. There have been 1,671 points scored and 1,535 points given up with this lineup on the court. So the +/- is +136.

Near the bottom of this first page of 2-player combinations, you come to the Anthony Carter / Allen Iverson combination. While those two players have been on the court, the Nuggets have scored 3,180 points and given up 3,148 points, so the +/- is +32.

Now look at the per time plus minuses. The Allen Iverson / J.R. Smith combination, for every minute it is on the court has on average given the Nuggets an advantage of .159 points. So for every 10 minutes, the Nuggets have outscored their opponents by 1.59 points with the Iverson / Smith combination. For every 30 minutes, the Nuggets outscore their opponents by 4.77 points with the Iverson / Smith combination.

For the Anthony Carter / Allen Iverson combination, for every minute it is on the court the Nuggets outscore their opponents by .022. So for every 10 minutes, the Nuggets have outscored their opponents by 0.22 points with the Carter / Iverson combination. For every 30 minutes, the Nuggets outscore their opponents by 0.66 points with the Carter / Iverson combination, about 2/3 of a point.

The bottom line is that for every 30 minutes, the Nuggets have the following fates, on average:

Allen Iverson / J.R. Smith in the backcourt 30 minutes: Denver outscores it's opponent by 4.77 points.
Anthony Carter / Allen Iverson in the backcourt 30 minutes: Denver outscores it's opponents by 0.66 points.

The Iverson / Smith combination gives the Nuggets a little more than 4 more points of advantage over the opponents than does the Carter / Iverson combination. The Carter / Iverson combination gives the Nuggets only a very weak advantage, on average, over opponents.

So you obviously want a lot more minutes of the Iverson / Smith combination, and a lot fewer minutes of the Carter / Iversion combination. Let's check to see how many minutes have actually been given to these combinations:

Iverson / Smith: 800 minutes
Carter / Iverson: 1414 minutes

Ouch, it's roughly backwards from what it's supposed to be.
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You didn't really make a point. Are you claiming that high school and college coaches can often not judge what positions their players should play? That's ridiculous, I would think. I don't care how many players are playing the wrong position, especially in football. I know for a fact that only a few players in the NBA are playing the wrong position, Iverson being one of them.

If a coach repeatedly puts players in the wrong position, he is going to get fired. it's that simple. It's not as if that incompetence could be kept a secret. On the other hand, most high school and college coaches who lose a few more games than expected do not get fired, whereas that can happen in professional sports.

High school and college coaches are judged first and foremost by how successful they are in getting their players to the next level, in both the athletic and institutional senses. If you go to Mike Bailey's site, the dominant thing on Mike Bailey's page is a description of all the players who went on to various successful college and pro careers after he coached them. How many wins he got is shown, but is in no way highlighted on the page. Just as Bailey's camp draws business more by advertising player success stories than by advertising Bailey's win-loss record, high schools and colleges draw talented recruits by emphasizing their player success stories first; the winning percentage is not as important as these success stories. But for the record, Bailey was massively successful in terms of wins and losses.

I have to keep guessing at what you are arguing. I am going to guess that you are saying that there are X's, O's, winning and losing, public relations, political agendas (office politics) with the front office and the owner, and handling volatile millionaire players involved. How am I doing with your argument?

Even if NBA coaches are automatically better at the things that don't apply in high school and college, how would it follow that they are more qualified to determine what position a player plays? If you had to bet, you would bet that the NBA coaches would be less qualified to judge what position a player should play, since they can't get a head coaching position unless they can do all the non-basketball stuff well.
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Random chance is a major factor in determining which of thousands of possible coaches end up as the 30 NBA coaches. There is simple mathematics involved.
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Well at least you have said something half way concrete, I think. So apparently, you think that Larry Brown and George Karl are more competent than Mike Bailey and John Thompson, due to the level difference, and maybe also more competent than Jim O' Brian. Actually, you still technically did not make the argument; it had to be deduced. Maybe you are worried about getting sued so you could not state it directly, ha ha.

In any event, you next have to present evidence as to why Brown and Karl are more competent than Bailey, Thompson, and O'Brian, that would pertain to choosing which player on the team should be the starting point guard.

Note: this is the last time I am going to try to flesh out skeleton and vague arguments just to make a response. It's a little too much like arguing with myself. And I am beginning to think that I am being made a fool of for responding to these types of arguments, and that in order to look good on the forum, I am supposed to not respond to these. How do I know you actually believe what you are implying? In order for me to respond, I need complete, direct, logical arguments, with evidence if at all possible. I don't think I should be responding any more to statements that require a lot of deduction to figure out what is really being claimed. I think what I am supposed to do is ignore any argument that is too vague or too indirectly stated, with no evidence to boot.
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I don't care how many play one positon in high school and another position in pro. I already said that I am aware that pro coaches can change positions if they think it is the correct thing to do. The question for me is whether it was correct for Larry Brown to do that for his team. And the other question for me is whether George Karl, faced with the loss of his starting point guard for most of the season, made the correct decision for the Nuggets when he refused to start AI at the point.

I'm also not trying to prove that AI's career would have been better if he had stayed at PG. I think that is true, and I would like to prove it, but I have doubt that I can prove something like that beyond a shadow of a doubt.. (At least I don't think I will be able to at this time.} I can make that seem very plausible, which is what I am going to be doing.

What I am in the process of proving beyond a shadow of a doubt is that AI would have been of more value to his teams had he always played the PG position. Originally, I intended to just prove that the Nuggets would have been much better off if AI had been the PG starter, but then I realized the parallels between the Nuggets and the 76'ers are so obvious that I should see if I can prove it for the 76'ers historically as well.
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If true, that's relevant only if the high school and/or the college coaches, in your view, were generally in the wrong, and should have been playing the player at the position they would have in the pros. For example, was Gilbert Arenas' coach dumb for not playing him at PG at Arizona, and is this a typical dumb mistake that a college coach makes? Is that what you are saying, that many more player position mistakes are made by high school and college coaches than are made by pro coaches?

But I think you are saying something different: you are saying that the situations are so radically different that it is normal for players to play different positions from high school/college to the pros. I don't know what the actual, real number of position changes from high school/college to pro is, but I'm going to assume for the hell of it that it is a substantial number like you think.

If that is so, then I can't use the coach counts to prove that Iverson was moved to the wrong position, but neither can you use the coach counts to disprove the theory that Iverson should not have been moved. Because if the situational differences overwhelm the position assignment, then you can't prove or disprove whether Iverson was moved to the wrong positon by number of coaches and/or the levels of those coaches. (Because the situations dictated the position decisions.)

But I never intended to rely on the count of coaches as a huge part of my argument. I knew I had to point out that many other coaches have differred with Brown and Karl, or else hardly anyone was going to carefully consider the rest of the evidence. When I investigated the coaches, I knew that my best case scenario would be that there would have been very slightly more coaches who played AI at the point than at the 2-guard. The best case scenario is what played out, which gives me the green light to continue to make the project bigger rather than smaller, and I am going to continue to give this project the great attention that it deserves in the weeks and even the months ahead.

I am going to have dozens of reasons when I am through, and relatively few of them will be slam dunk, but all of them will help my side. If it were true that all or most of AI's coaches have played him at the point, I would never get a lot of people to agree that it was a mistake, regardless of how much evidence and how many arguments I had. This coach count is a preliminary argument, which gets my foot in the door. This was like a preliminary hearing in a court of law.

Unless there are fair and objective ways to compare Mike Bailey, John Thompson, Johnny Davis, and Jim O'Brien to Larry Brown and George Karl, the basic coach count may be all that anyone can do on the general coach comparison front. From here on out, the coaches will be compared with respect to the actual situations they faced at the times they made their point guard decisions, and whether their decsions were correct, incorrect, or ambiguous.

But I have succeeded in my objective on coach count and coaches in general already; all I had to do was show that there have been a substantial number of coaches who thought AI should play the point. It wasn't just the high school and the college coaches. Johnny Davis, Jim O'Brien, and Maurice Cheeks to some extent are 3 NBA coaches who exclusively or extensively started AI at PG.
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The school boards, the high school administrators, and the college administrators, as evaluation criteria #1, use how successful a coach is in developing his players, and how successful he is in inducing colleges and pro teams to recruit and draft those players up to the next level when they evaluate the value of that coach to the institution. The coach's employer, who obviously decides whether the coach will ever be fired or not, does NOT use wins and losses as the number one criteria at the high school and college levels. A possible exception to this would be a handful of college basketball and college football teams which are known to be the best teams in the land. This exception would be only a very small percentage of all college teams.

Of course, everyone other than the administrators of the schools uses wins and losses to evaluate the coach. But the smart coaches worry more about developing their players, especially their better players, and making sure those players get recruited or drafted to an impressive target school or team.
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Just as Bailey's camp draws business more by advertising player success stories than by advertising Bailey's win-loss record, high schools and colleges draw talented recruits by emphasizing their player success stories first; the winning percentage is not as important as these success stories except in a very small percentage of cases.
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See the above explanation. I agree that the general public does not care very much about who a coach has helped promote upward. As I explained, my point was that the employers of the coaches care about that even more than they care about winning and losing. Because if a school has a coach who can not develop players and make them attractive to recruiters and teams, because he assigns alot of players to the wrong positon for example, the school is going to have big problems recruiting new quality student-athletes to come to their school. Because the student athletes themselves and their parents are more concerned about where they will be able to go after they leave the high school or the college than they are about the win-loss record. So the student athletes and their parents have to see success stories to be induced to choose the particular school in question.

Return of Nuggets 1: Forum #2 Comments From Late March 2008, Part 3

Return of Nuggets 1: Forum #2 Comments From Late March 2008, Part 2

So are you trying to say that because Iverson "lost his starting PG job" that he hasnt developed into the player he could have been?

Iverson dominates the ball no matter what, so why not have him run off screens to get open and give him the advantage over the defender as soon as he touches the ball? Why make him set up the offense, when everyone know he is the offense?

My response was:

Read my post I just made for my answer to this. In one sentence, it's because PG is the more important position and Iverson can help his team more and be molded to near perfection more easily at that position. Read my previous post for more detail.
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AI was going to be famous and have a great career whichever position he was designated to. I just said above: "But was he one of the all time best SG guards ever the way history actually played out? Of course. "

And those players you mentioned did not start out at PG, did they?

I'm still waiting for an example of a player even 2/3 as good as AI who played PG in college, failied at that as a starter in the NBA in his 1st or 2nd year, and played SG after that. Obviously that would be rare. My question is whether anyone knows of that ever happening. I never heard of it, but I am no basketball historian.
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Yeah, the one thing that has been a constant throughout all the years is that AI is always asked to do too much. The 76'ers over relied on one player for scoring, and George Karl has repeated this strategy lock, stock, and barrel. But basketball is a team sport, Michael Jordan needed Scottie Pippen, and so on and so forth. Coaches have been saying througout the years, starting with John Thompson, "I'll make it easy on myself by letting AI do it." So he has been playing both guard positions interchangeably throughout the years and, of course, he often ends up playing both positions at once, which a good amount of the time is a net negative for the team.

If you and I could go through life twice, and in one life AI was the SG and in the other life AI was the PG, he would be one of the best at that position in either life. But as the PG, he would have been more valuable to his team under most circumstances. The current Nuggets circumstances are no exception to this.

Most of the teams that are ahead of the Nuggets right now are ahead largely or substantially because of their point guards: the Hornets, the Warriors, the Jazz. the Suns, arguably the Spurs. And what about all the drama about whether the Mavericks were going to get Jason Kidd or not? Would there have been all that drama if Kidd was a SG?
The shooting guards of all of those teams are less important than their point guards; those teams would not work without their great PGs.

Everyone dreams of getting a great PG for the Nuggets, but the Nuggets have already busted through the payroll limit already, so they should have made do with what was right under their nose.
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Strictly speaking I'm looking for players who were moved because it was claimed that they were a failure at PG, because that is what most of the other side keeps claiming happened regarding A.I..

However, I am secondarily looking for a correlation assuming that the player moved was NOT considered to be a failure at the position. So if Wade was a PG in college and as a rookie in the NBA, that would be a direct correlation with AI, so then what happened to AI would at least not be unprecedented.

So now I'll have to find out if Wade was a PG in college.
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Fortunately AI's gangsta was mostly an act, or else he would have ended up behind bars and I never would have been able to write about how he should have played the crucial PG position for the Nuggets.

He made a rap album once, but was forced to not release it.

Return of Nuggets 1: Forum #2 Comments From Late March 2008, Part 1

Forum commentary I did from March 2008 through July 2008, when I didn't have time to do the detailed and extensive reports that I like to do, is being posted in early October, 2008. The primary themes are how the Nuggets are blowing a great (and expensive!) opportunity to play the game of basketball in such a way that respects the sport and that takes as much advantage as possible of who they have on the roster. The 2006-09 Nuggets have turned out to be an excellent case study of how not to run a basketball team; many things you should not do if you are a basketball manager or coach can be identified from what the Nuggets actually did during these years.

In these comments, do not look for the usual huge amount of detail and proof that you see in the ordinary releases here at Nuggets 1. Some of this is more like everyday conversation than like top quality sports writing. On the other hand, some of the comments do include some detailed reasoning and proof that I pride myself on in the primary reports I release.
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LATE MARCH 2008 FORUM COMMENTARY ON THE NUGGETS, ESPECIALLY ABOUT THEIR MISTAKES

With the following commentary, you can see the early discoveries that gave birth to the Special Report: "Allen Iverson: What Could Have Been," a report which due to time constraints is still months away from completion. But three parts of the roughly eight-ten parts there will be have been published already.
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Tomorrow's game is huge, the Nuggets can win it and need to win it. Wednesday is a back to back road game in Philadelphia, one of the hottest teams in the League right now, so that will probably be a loss.

The two Warriors games are huge too, March 29 and April 10.

Every time I see CP3 win a game it reminds me that A.I. could be the CP3 for the Nuggets if the coaches would just stop playing stupid games with the lineup, and stop trying to make A.I. play both guard postions at once all the time. Just because he can play both guard positions at once doesn't mean that it is smart for the team that he does.
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It's most likely a loss unless Chucky Atkins and Allen Iverson get at least a dozen assists. You can't run a wide open pick-up game type of offense against the Pistons, this is a serious defensive team. You have to have playmakers who can break down the defense to some extent. I don't really care how many assists Carter gets, because he just can't compete with Atkins, Iverson, or J.R. Smith as a scorer. Carter belongs on a losing team, not on the Denver Nuggets who are on the verge of being America's chump team.
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Playing the way he has, Anthony Carter could get at least as many minutes on many other teams and hardly anyone would complain. For the Nuggets, you have to complain about it, because the position is too important and the Nuggets have too much offensive talent to settle for Carter as a PG starter and 20+mpg player.

The recent 3 straight routs by the Nuggets reminds us that the Nuggets can't be "settling" for things when there are better options available. They have no business being in 9th place, in great danger of missing the playoffs. So criticisms that might seem kind of tough have to be made, because I want this team to get where it is supposed to be.
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From Wikipedia:

"Despite these criticisms, Iverson is still generally regarded as one of the best guards to ever play the game, as evidenced by his being named the starting point guard for the Eastern Conference in the NBA All-Star Game for the past seven consecutive seasons. He was voted to seven All-NBA Teams. He also took the league and All-Star MVP and led the Sixers to the Finals in 2001."
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THANK YOU VERY MUCH. You have helped me with one of my biggest discoveries of the year, probably the biggest. This is huge, because this proves that AI at the 2-guard is a Larry Brown-George Karl thing and that's about it. George Karl refuses to do what the majority of other coaches have done, which is start AI at PG. Since it is well known that Brown and Karl are close friends and associates, it would be nearly impossible for Karl to play AI at PG, because this would go against one of his best friends and his mentor.

AI at the 2-guard, but playing PG to one extent or another at the same time, is a huge reason why the Nuggets' offense has been incomprehensible, probably the #1 reason. And this is why it is so easy for good defensive teams to partly or totally shut down the Nuggets' offense. And the offensive inconsistency is the number one reason why the Nuggets are in 9th in the West right now instead of in the top 4. So this will be the #1 reason why the Nuggets miss the playoffs if they do miss the playoffs, or the #1 reason why they lose in the playoffs quickly.

Thanks again.
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Allen Iverson played for two years in college, for the Georgetown University Hoyas, in 1994-95 and in 1995-96. According to CBS Sportsline, his assists per game were 4.5 and 4.7 per game for those two years.
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"You can't use a 15 year-old's logic and expect it to apply to real life" is an ad hominen attack. When you get one of those, you know you are on the right track.

1. Those who disagree with me are now in two contradictory camps. One camp says that AI can't play the PG positon well, that he is a SG in a PG's body, and so forth. The other camp, the one you described, says that AI can play both positons and what matters is who the SG would be if AI is at PG or who the PG would be if AI is at SG. Which is it? I recommend that the other side get organized, because your side looks kind of weak when you have contradictory reasons flying around.

2. The styles of Brown and Karl don't matter to this controversy. And I'm not "anyone." I probably spend more time determining why the Nuggets win and why they lose than anyone, and I have reached the point where I can easily explain every loss and every win. I'm obviously not saying that Karl has followed Brown's wrong choice for Iverson knowing in advance it will fail, because obviously no one can know for sure in advance whether a strategy will succeed or fail. I am saying that it is a known fact that Brown was a mentor to Karl, and that it is rare for anyone to go on a completely different track from their mentor, on one of the most important decisions that mentor ever made. I am also saying that it is a well known fact that Karl detests the personality and style of J.R. Smith, and that most of his decisions regarding the guards of the Denver Nuggets have the common denominator result of keeping Smith on the bench more rather than less.

The fact that their chosen strategy has failed means that the probability that I am right and that they are wrong has shot up to a very high percentage, which means, like it or not, I have to complete this investigation and report.

3. I'm not through studying the Philly record, but that is a relatively minor issue, because my side and half of your side agrees that Iverson can play either position well. The reason this is important for the Nuggets is because the Nuggets would not be in the mess they are in if they had 5-6 more wins and, if I'm right, as seems increasinly obvious, the Nuggets would have those wins and maybe more.

4. Nene: any good coaching staff should be able to handle the loss of 1 player at Nene's level, so if you think I am going to say "Well, we would have made the playoffs if Nene played" and be done with it, sorry, I'm not going there. In point of fact, in any event, you don't see me saying the staff mishandled the loss of Nene. But they did screw up the loss of Atkins, and it looks like they are going to screw up the return of Atkins. Kenyon Martin was integrated easily and quickly thanks to sports medicine and thanks to Nene not being available. The Nuggets may have lost 1-2 games due to that. One of my jobs is to determine why the Nuggets are not fully competive with the "ultracompetitive West." If you want to say everything would be fine if Denver was in the East, fine, go ahead and say it. I won't be impressed with that. The Nuggets are one of the best 6 teams in the NBA; they should be between 3rd and 5th in the West at a minimum. Anything less than that and they have no chance in the playoffs, so what is the point?

The Nuggets do not have an underachieving bench, they have coaches who overestimate the differences between starters and non-starters, and who are among the stingiest in the NBA in the amount of playing time given to non-starters. Obviously, the bench is going to be underachieving to some extent if their playing times are less than the playing times of non-starters on other teams. That is precisely the point I have been making for many moons. Lack of significant roster improvements? Ha ha, they need to improve more than they already have, with no money left to do that? Try another reason. "Opponents adapting to the Iverson trade"? Careful, you are very close to making an argument in favor of AI at PG, because keying in on Iverson all the time won't work as well if Iverson is at least as responsible for passing and assists as he is for scoring.

I am afraid that I have stumbled on something that is bigger than I ever thought it would be. In every controversy like this, some people are going to get upset, because assumptions they have had for years and years are being questioned. Anyone who wants to stay believing that AI's career could not have worked out better had Larry Brown not removed him from the position that the majority of coaches thought he should play is welcome to do so.

Many on the Iverson can't play the PG side are going to be folks who don't really give a damn whether Iverson ever makes it to the NBA finals again or not. Anyone who does care would be more open to the possiblity that Brown and Karl have been wrong, because it never worked out their way except in that one wonder year when Iverson was by far the best guard on the planet. Do you continue on with the same strategy when it fails year after year after year? Well if you don't give a damn about Iverson, sure you do.

You don't have to explain the failure of the Nuggets, but I do, and I will.
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t should be in the College Basketball General Forum, because those who know the answer are not going to be limited to just those who are interested in the Big East.

But whatever, it doesn't matter, because I pretty much found what I was looking for. The answer is obvious from the Hoya stats I have just discovered. These stats are at the Georgetown Basketball History Project, and they show that Iverson was overwhelmingly dominant in assisting; details later.
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Oh great, now Iverson was a complete failure as a PG even though he was moved to a different position after just his rookie season. And even though there are only 7 players in the NBA who get more assists per game right now, I might add.
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No, Iverson was not remotely a failure as a PG either at Georgetown or in his rookie year for the 76'ers:

Iverson's Rookie Year NBA Leaders

STATISTICS FROM IVERSON'S ROOKIE YEAR, 1996-97, FOR THE 76'ERS UNDER COACH JOHNNY DAVIS
# of Field Goals: 14th best in the NBA
# of 3-Point Field Goals: 17th best in the NBA
# of Free Throws: 15th best in the NBA
# of Free Throw Attempts: 10th in the NBA
# of Assists: 11th best in the NBA
# of Steals: 10th best in the NBA
# of Points: 8th best in the NBA
Minutes per Game: 8th highest in the NBA
Points Per Game: 6th highest in the NBA
Assists Per Game: 11th highest in the NBA
Steals Per Game: 7th highest in the NBA
Assist %: 17th highest in the NBA
Usage %: 6th highest in the NBA

To say that Iverson was a failure at the PG position in his rookie year, when he was the designated PG, so that it was a smart thing to move him over to SG is nuts, pure and simple. I can now prove that both Larry Brown and George Karl were both total jerks with respect to handling Allen Iverson.

And all those whiney complaints about how Iverson doesn't pass enough because Iverson is selfish are garbage, because Brown and Karl have told him to pass less and score more.
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Commentary focused on Allen Iverson continues with the Posting titled "Return of Nuggets 1: Forum #2 Comments From Late March 2008, Part 2."

Thursday, October 2, 2008

Return of Nuggets 1: Forum Comments From Late July, 2008

Forum commentary I did from March 2008 through July 2008, when I didn't have enough time for the detailed and extensive reports I like to do, is being posted in early October, 2008. The primary themes are how the Nuggets are blowing a great (and expensive!) opportunity to play the game of basketball in such a way that respects the sport and that takes as much advantage as possible of who they have on the roster. The 2006-09 Nuggets have turned out to be an excellent case study of how not to run a basketball team; many things you should not do if you are a basketball manager or coach can be identified from what the Nuggets actually did during these years.

In these comments, do not look for the usual huge amount of detail and proof that you see in the ordinary releases here at Nuggets 1. Some of this is more like everyday conversation than like top quality sports writing. On the other hand, some of the comments do include some detailed reasoning and proof that I pride myself on in the primary reports I release.
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LATE JULY 2008 FORUM COMMENTARY ON THE NUGGETS, ESPECIALLY ABOUT THEIR MISTAKES

This is more commentary following the Camby giveaway. See also the immediately preceding post, (posted on the same day) titled: "Return of Nuggets 1: Forum Comments From Middle of July, 2008"

Every time I read a Hollinger article all the way through I think he is more of a loony than before. In this gem, he endorses the apparent Nuggets crash and burn plan of going in one year flat from one extreme to the other financially. It's a backhanded compliment, because he says the only way the Camby offloading makes any sense at all is if you realize that the C Anthony-Iverson thing was a horrible mistake. (With compliments like that, who needs criticisms?)

So he talks about the Nuggets possibly going under the cap, and the possibility of their using the trade exception in 2009. He's silent as to the odds of that working out but believe me, he will be the first to criticize if it doesn't work out.

Hollinger also contradicts himself as he often does. First he claims that the Nuggets gain from the offloading of Camby. Then in the last 3 paragraphs, he goes into how the Nuggets are devastated by this move in basketball terms, and are heading for the "second tier" of the Conference.

Which is it Hollinger? He really should make his mind up in advance, so he doesn't write such a mealy mouthed article.
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Now we know that the Nuggets really were exploring Melo trades, no matter what they say in public, and no matter what they told him and his agent. They had the carving knife out from day one of the off season.

A Melo trade was a serious possibility, as I said before, though at the time I said that I didn't know what I know now, so I wasn't totally sure of it at the time I first said it.

What do you think phil77 you think Melo is going to stay if there are major losing seasons, or will he want to go?
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If the Nuggets realized that rebuilding is needed after they fell into the trap of using Iverson the same way the 76'ers did, then I give them credit for that at least.

But I can not figure out for the life of me why the Nuggets did not want a draft pick this year if they are truly now in rebuilding

The obvious best guess, as I said, is that Mr. Kroenke is consolidating his finances due to the rough and threatening economy. Maybe even for someone like him, times can be tough?
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Just about any other way of moving Camby would have been better than this, other than dumping him in a river somewhere.

As just one example, the Nuggets could have traded Camby and their first round draft pick for a higher draft pick, and then use that to draft one of the best centers available in the draft. That deal would be weighted in favor of the other team, but would not be a giveaway. Under this scenario, the Nuggets would get a promising but young replacement for Camby, and get substantial payroll relief at the same time.

The Nuggets saying that they needed to dump Camby because of an immediate need for huge payroll relief is nothing more than meatball surgery.
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Well, if the Nuggets could not find a team with payroll space, they should have waited until they could. It's not really difficult. Find a team that has cap space, offer them a deal that is lopsided in their favor, and avoid dumping Camby in the river. Get something for him, for gods sakes.

The Nuggets, whether they admit it publicly or not, have gone into rebuilding without exhausting the possibilities with their present high talent roster, though that may sound ironic coming from someone who had lost faith in them ever doing that. But I never asked them to admit they were failures in managing this roster, as they now have.

To me, the front office and the coaches in effect admitting they could not make the 2007-08 roster, one of the NBA's best, work out, before exhausting their efforts, is as bad as them not being able to make the roster work out in the first place! At least try to do it! You might get lucky, for one thing. AI might have decided to pass more on his own for example.

All of this raises the question: why did they in the first place spend the big bucks, including the big luxury tax, if there was a possibility they would short circuit the project and dismantle the team before making certain that the expenditure of all that money was not going to work out? Now the Nuggets have more or less wasted the money they spent on the big salary players and on the luxury tax, by not waiting long enough to get much of a return.

If they had given it one more year, they could have at the very least attracted more big names to be interested in playing in Denver, similar to the way Ron Artest was interested last year. But now that the team is being carved up, which good players are going to be willing to cut the Nuggets a little salary slack in order to be able to play with the mighty Nuggets? No one. To get anyone to play in Denver now, the Nuggets have to pony up and offer an extra several million dollars compared with what it might have been.

In other words, the Nuggets are signaling to the League and all of its players that they are not a truly front line, contending franchise, and those top players and their agents will respond accordingly. The Nuggets are reversing their investment before getting any return on it, with the snubbing of Ron Artest being part of that self destructive process.

But worse still, and this may be the most relevant point at this juncture, the Nuggets are screwing up the rebuilding in its early stages, Getting nothing for Camby (and nothing for Najera) is to say the least not a good start for the rebuilding. Repeatedly getting nothing for something is not going to get you anywhere, no matter how many hypothetical payroll razzmatazz possibilities you want to discuss for the future.

The trade exception is nothing more than an option for a team to acquire a new player and new salary and go over the cap at the same time. It doesn't mean you get the player for free if you use it, which is the way some posters make it sound sometimes. You have to acquire that player somehow, and you have to pay his salary too, the "trade exception" thing is just an NBA payroll accounting rule.
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Someone really smart and correct made an on point list:

I agree i'm hoping something big is in the works. Because right now this brain trust is just stupid to me.

1.Sign Reggie Evans to more than he was worth, then dump him for a far worse player to save money FROM THEIR SIGNING
2.Sign Nene to $60 million when he hadnt proved anything, and there were no teams with cap space that would have came close to offering it.
3.Trade our PG for AI but instead of making AI a PG who sets up his team they move him to SG but still mandate he controls the ball 20 seconds out of every posession.
4.Not make one dent in the draft, though some of the players we have drafted and traded for other teams have done pretty well.
5.Keep a coach that is not a fit for this team at all
6.Let eddie go because we have no money, then after he signs dump a bunch of salary for absolutely nothing. Not even a second round pick, nothing.
7.Future $7 mil a year deal that JR will get only to sit on the bench while AI/Chucky/Carter run the show
8.Say stupid s**t like "its a chess move". Yeah Memphis was playing Chess when they gave away gasol for nothing too.

I can understand if we said that we needed to clear salary and start over, but the majority of the salary issues we have were created by this front office, Kenyon is the only hold over, the other dumb contracts are on these guys. Wark/Bearup/Chapman clearly do not know what they are doing at this point.

My response was add to an already great commentary:

Excellent list; but now you have to at the least add #9: the Camby dumping.

The JR acquisition for almost nothing and the AI acquisition, and a few other minor positives, are swamped by these negatives. The front office has failed overall.
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Someone made a joke about J.R. Smith:

Sure...he could be worth 10 million next season. or he could run over david stern's granddaughters puppy while smoking a joint and be banished from the nba for life.

I added:

Seriously, another risk for him is an injury, for example from a fluke landing on a dunk, from another neck tackle, or from trying to fly like a bird with his vehicle.
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Well it was a glass full or glass half empty situation. On one hand, those who think strategically and who are basketball fanatics could tell that, the way the Nuggets were managing their team, they were never going to succeed, at least insofar as the playoffs. So if you look at it that way, as I usually do, you would say "alright, this is a failure; end it and stop paying the luxury tax for no reason immediately."

On the other hand, you could look at the glass as half full, and if you did, the Nuggets had no right to consider themselves to be at a logical dead end, and to short circuit the Melo/AI/Luxury Tax era. Consider:

1. From a what we officially know perspective, there hasn't been one word, nor one hint of a word, in public, about the Nuggets reaching an end to their project to become a real contender in the West. Quite to the contrary, Nuggets management has been consistent in saying that they are still on course to being a contender. Is this a stealth rebuilding or something?
2. From a basketball strategy perspective, the Nuggets could not possibly be at a logical end unless they actually, really, fully deployed Allen Iverson at the PG position, instead of just inserting him in that slot for the playoffs, for grins only.
3. From a performance measure perspective, you can't possibly say that one of the very most talented teams in the NBA has reached a logical end and has to begin rebuilding. If Camby and Najera were retiring, you could say that maybe, but they were not retiring. Would Boston, Los Angeles, or at least a dozen top NBA franchises be caught dead starting to rebuild while they were still one of the most talented teams in the NBA?
4. From the actual basketball results strategy, the Nuggets won 50 out of 82 games in 2007-08, one of their highest total number of wins ever. Moreover, the gap between their offensive efficiency and defensive efficiency in 2007-08 was substantially up from the year prior, and was one of their most positive gaps ever. You are not at the logical dead end when you have just completed your best season in many, many years.

In short, you have to wait until you are actually at the logical dead end until you take drastic action as a result of being at the logical dead end. The Nuggets are acting as if they are paranoid about finding out whether they were about to reach the logical dead end, which is ridiculous.

This is about like a man, suspecting that he is going to die soon, going to the funeral home, jumping in a casket, and telling the funeral director to bury him now!

I as a critic am entitled to look at the glass as half empty, but the Nuggets as a professional sports organization are supposed to look at the glass as half full, and act accordingly. Moreover, as I said, the Nuggets and any organization anywhere is supposed to continue to manage an investment until there is definitely no chance for a return from it, rather than cutting and running and failing to get a return before the possibilities for a return are exhausted.

Now switching gears, assuming that the Nuggets have gone into rebuilding, the question becomes how are they doing in the early going? And in my view they are doing rotten, and I don't see how that is disputable or complicated. How can you expect to have a successful rebuilding if you decline your one and only draft pick, and opt for dumping both Camby and Najera, with no young players with potential in exchange. I know that Karl is biased against younger players, but this is ridiculous.

To have a successful rebuilding (or a successful team in general, for that matter) it seems to me that you need to be continuously developing your younger players, making them better, and working them into your offensive and defensive strategies and schemes.

For the Nuggets to say: "We'll pick up everyone we need next year, and/or the year after that" is poor management in my book. For one thing, by not getting any young player who will be an important part of the rebuilding now, in particular a center or a point guard, they are totally wasting 2008-09, because obviously you can't be working with a player if he's not on your team.

Furthermore, it sounds like the Nuggets, by doing all the offloading this year and planning all the uploading for next year or two, are creating a very tall order for the front office to accomplish next year. This tall order is supposed to be satisfied in the jungle that is the NBA draft, trading and acquisition world, where any combination among 29 other teams can frustrate your efforts to get what you need, especially if you are in a hurry. Generally, the more you count on acquisitions via trade to make up for the lack of on court development of key players in your system, the more you are dependent on being lucky when you maneuver for position with the other 29 teams. And going from getting 0 players from the draft one year, to 3-4 players from the draft the next year, is another inconsistency that you should avoid if at all possible.

If the Nuggets, in this rebuilding, do in fact finally get some promising younger players in 2009, all at once, then there will be a logjam of younger players, and no coach, least of all Karl, will be able to work all of them in in just one season, so one or more of them will be wasted that season.

If on the other hand, the Nuggets, in this rebuilding, are actually just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic; if they intend, in other words, to continue to overload with huge money aging veterans, and not worry about developing younger players into their system, then they will fail again with new names.

To be successful, you absolutely must have some kind of a balance between younger, cheaper players, and older, expensive ones. The payroll rules and the salary pattern make that mandatory.

In summary, I don't think rebuilding is something that you can wake up in the morning and say: "Alright, it's time to rebuild, and we're going to do it in 2009, and dump off some players this year to stop paying the luxury tax. To be a successful franchise, you generally are going to have to always be rebuilding to some extent. Every single year, you should be developing players who will in a year or two or three be crucial, as the older players go away. Every single year, you should be on the lookout for mid-level type players, including swingmen and guards who can hit threes, who appear on track to become quality starters.

I agree you need 2 or preferably 3 huge players to succeed, but if you spend most of your time and most of your money looking for and acquiring them, and if you overload with them, then what do you think is going to happen with the rest of the roster? Correct, it's going to rot to one extent or another. And your team overall will be top heavy and will fail in the playoffs.
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There are ways to criticize Camby's defensive style and choices without making a fool of yourself but this is not one of them.

Also, it's interesting to note that the Clippers are apparently going to start Camby at power forward, which if comments like this are correct, will devastate their defense, while the defense of the Nuggets will be much better without Camby.

This is seriously going to be an interesting test to see whether a defender who makes slightly unusual defensive choices is in fact a player who the mainstream, due to rebounding, blocking, and +/- statistics, thinks is a good defender, but is really a poor defender due to style, including choice of priorities.

As an important side point, obviously, a player's style and priorities depend on that player's real athletic capabilities, which in turn depend to some extent on that player's body and what he can do with it. So what the Camby haters are in effect saying is that no one with Camby's type of body and hand skills should be starting for a pro basketball team.

So we will have to see what happens to the defenses of the Clippers and the Nuggets this year: will they be better or worse than last year, and by how much? If the Clippers improve more than the Nuggets defensively, I for one will continue to never seriously consider that choices a player makes regarding playing style can be a major or a large factor in determining the real value of that player, enough to make all statistics and awards meaningless. Simply put, assuming there are no non-Camby related huge shocks regarding the defenses of either team:

Nuggets defense improves more than does the Clippers defense: Camby's defensive style and priorities did in fact partly or largely offset his raw production of rebounds, blocks, plus/minus, and overall team defensive efficiency.

Clippers defense improves more than does the Nuggets defense: Production is what counts; style and choice of priorities may be the derivative of production, but the derivative only matters much in calculus class.

Note: I have been staying away from NT because I am too negative about the Nuggets now to get any advantage from this board, but in coming here to find a link, I could not resist reading some topics, and then I noticed the quoted comment above, and I just could not stop myself from commenting. The idea that people can be happy that Camby was given away for nothing is so insane to me that I could not resist a comment and a follow up plan. So I will probably not be able to stop myself from coming back late this year to claim victory or admit defeat on this subject.

Remember, it was not Katrina that killed much of New Orleans, it was the fact the levees failed when they were not supposed to. Similarly, it will not be the trading of Camby that kills the Nuggets (assuming it does); it will be the fact that Camby was dumped overboard in a big hurry, without anything being obtained in exchange. Don't get it twisted.

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GIVE US THE JUICE TO PRODUCE REPORTS MORE QUICKLY
Although there is a guaranteed minimum rate of Report production regardless of traffic, IT IS IN YOUR POWER to help double or triple the number of and frequency of Reports. Simply take two or three minutes as often as you can to recommend Quest and post links to Quest on your favorite sports and other sites. The resulting automatic increase of traffic will in turn increase the resources that go in to producing Quest, which in turn speeds up reporting. If you want, e-mail how you helped (include the url of where you posted a link to Quest) and we will throw some Internet love back to where you tell us on the Internet. Thank you.

Here are some quick links that you can use to find a place where you might post a link to Quest and/or to Quest content.

HOLD MOUSE HERE TO EXPAND THIS MENU OF PLACES ON WHICH YOU CAN POST A LINK TO QUEST:

BASKETBALL SITES THAT ARE OPEN FOR CONTENT FROM ANYONE
Note: Beware of "layered" sites. None of the following are layered sites, which are sites that allow contributions from the public only in hard to find, low traffic areas, while the main areas are off limits for public input and are only for a chosen few. All of the following have at least some notable traffic, and all of them allow relatively equal and open participation. The order is from most recommended to least recommended, based on about half a dozen factors.

Bleacher Report Open Posting Site
Inside Hoops NBA Forum
Real GM NBA and Team Forums
Pro Sports Daily NBA Forum
Basketball Forum NBA Forum
Sporting News NBA Forum
Hoops Hype NBA Forum
Armchair GM Open Posting Site
SportsTwo NBA Forum
NBA Dimensions NBA Forum
OTR Basketball Forums NBA Forum
NBA Boards NBA Forum
NBA Wire NBA Forum
KFFL NBA Forum

Note: there are other forums, but they are all very low traffic and activity compared to the ones above.

MESSAGE BOARDS AT HUGE COROPORATIONS
The Fox NBA board is very low traffic, and the MSNBC NBA board doesn't exist anymore. The CBS Sports NBA Message Board is a layered site; you can NOT post topics nor expect to be considered seriously there until you have spent a few years posting there. We do not recommend CBS Sports. So the only real, fully open NBA forum hosted by a big corporation is the ESPN message board. Be forewarned though that the ESPN board is dominated by very young fans who make very short comments. On the other hand, it is a high traffic site, so we won't stop you from posting a Quest link at ESPN if you want to.

ESPN NBA Message Board

>>>I WANT TO STICK WITH THE WAY OTHER SITES PRESENT POSTS
Due to the number of, uniqueness of, and importance of the many other home page features we have, only one Report loads at a time, currently the one just above. To see the next Report (which would be the one that came out just before the one above) on this home page, click "Older Posts" that is at the very bottom of the Report showing above, just above the section header "Your Ball: Take Your Best Shot".

>>ALTERNATIVE HOME PAGES
There are three home pages, all of which have all of the Reports but which have completely different features appearing on the sidebar and below the one Report that is shown at a time. These pages have been designed so that they fully load in about 10 seconds (no more super long load times we used to be known for.)

HOME PAGE A: ALL REPORTS, READERS CONTAINING REPORTS 1-100, AND UNIQUE FEATURES
HOME PAGE B: ALL REPORTS, READERS CONTAINING REPORTS 1-100, AND UNIQUE FEATURES
HOME PAGE C: ALL REPORTS, READERS CONTAINING REPORTS 1-100, AND UNIQUE FEATURES

>>REPORT READERS: Complete freedom to rapidly choose and read what you need or want to read. The latest 40 Reports are found near the top of all three of the primary home pages (linked to just above) while Reports #41-#100 are found in three separate readers placed at various points down the page on all three primary home pages.

>>EXPRESS VERSION: Every Single Report but no Features: a Fast Loading Page: Click Here

>>FAST BREAK VERSION: The Latest 100 Reports via Report Readers Only; no Features, a Fast Loading Page: Click Here

>>QUEST ARCHIVE HOME PAGES--REPORT ARCHIVES AND A SMALL NUMBER OF CLASSIC FEATURES THAT WON'T FIT ON OTHER HOME PAGES
QUEST 4: REPORTS 101-200
QUEST 5: REPORTS 201-300
QUEST 6: REPORTS 301-400
QUEST 7: REPORTS 401-500
QUEST 8: REPORTS 501-600
QUEST 9: REPORTS 601-700
QUEST 10: REPORTS 701-800

>>FEATURES ONLY HOME PAGES: NO REPORTS, JUST FEATURES THAT WE CAN'T FIT ANYWHERE ELSE
QUEST OVERTIME
QUEST CLASSIC

>>COMPLETE TITLE INDEX: : A Complete Report Title Index, with Express Version Links to all Reports

>>LATEST 25 Reports: Direct links to the latest 25 Reports (with no truncated titles as you find with the poorly designed Google archive). This is located near the very bottom of this page.

>>GOOGLE ARCHIVE you will find this, with Reports shown by week not very far below.

>>I'M NEW AND I DON'T KNOW WHERE I WANT TO GO: Welcome to the Real Zone. Simply browse the page and see for yourself what is here. You will not be disappointed.

>>OR YOU CAN DO A CUSTOM GOOGLE SEARCH OF THE 13 BOOKS AND COUNTING CONTAINED ON THIS SITE>>>>>

TWO WAYS TO LOOK AT HOW LONG QUEST FOR THE RING HAS BEEN KEEPING IT REAL

The above shows you in two different ways the exact amount of time since The Quest for the Ring began to completely explain how the Quest is won, while having as much fun as possible at the expense of basketball pretenders and player haters. The first panel shows how long it has been in each of seven units. The second panel shows how long it has been in the more usual "remainder" way.

QUEST FOR THE RING SOMETIMES GOES INTO HIATUS
Regardless of any temporary unavoidable absences, the Quest is in this project to explain in detail for the very long term--indefinitely, for many, many, many years ahead. At this writing we have the equivalent of 15 basketball books under our belt and we plan on doing dozens more. Count on us being right where basketball is at, which is here, actually.

QUEST IS FREE BUT ABOUT 3 MINUTES OF YOUR TIME CAN GET YOU MORE OF IT

Although there is a guaranteed minimum rate of Report production regardless of traffic, it is in your power to help increase the number of and frequency of Quest Reports. All Quest sites are developed and produced according to both superseding criteria and site traffic. Like all sites started in recent years, Quest receives very little help from Google and other search engines. The search engines mostly serve to keep the older, popular sites popular; they preserve the same old, same old status quo.

The amount of reporting and the frequency of Quest Reports could easily be double what it is were site traffic higher. If Quest obtained the traffic we know it deserves, than production would go from the equivalent of roughly three books about basketball a year to at least five and to as many as six books a year!

WE NEED A GRAND TOTAL OF ABOUT 3 MINUTES OF YOUR TIME
Please take three or four minutes every now and then to recommend Quest and post links to Quest on your favorite sports and other sites. In other words, wherever possible use us to back up what you are posting and writing. The resulting automatic increase of traffic will in turn increase the resources that go in to producing Quest home page Reports. After helping us, feel free to e-mail how you helped and we will throw some Internet love back to your Internet hangout. The email address is thequestforthering1. This is a gmail address, so you use @gmail.com after that address.

WELCOME TO THE QUEST--THINGS ARE VERY DIFFERENT HERE

WELCOME TO THE QUEST FOR THE RING, ALSO KNOWN AS THE REAL ZONE
This is one of the most serious basketball sites on the internet, focusing on how and why playoff games and NBA Championships are won. We also love to take comedy and music breaks, but not every day.

WELCOME TO THE QUEST FOR THE RING. YOU HAVE LEFT THE HYPE ZONE AND HAVE ARRIVED IN THE REAL ZONE. Please check any rose colored glasses at the door. The Hype Zone is where you can find out about the personalities and the styles and how popular they are and what they are up to lately. The Real Zone is where we DO NOT think personalities and styles and how popular or unpopular they are things to waste time on just for ratings or traffic.

Instead of hype, here we post as much truth about how NBA playoff games and Championships are won as we can 365 days a year and at at any hour of the day or night. Please have a productive visit, and a nice trip back to the Hype Zone when your visit is over.

A SMALL SAMPLE OF CURRENT AND SOON TO COME QUEST FOR THE RING REAL ZONE TOPICS
--How and Why the 2010 Los Angeles Lakers, the 2010 Cleveland Cavaliers, and the 2010 Boston Celtics Win or Lose in the 2010 Playoffs
--The right "amount of" LeBron James
--How players we know deserve to win a first or second Ring can get one, highly talented players such as Chris Paul, Chris Bosh, Rajon Rondo, and Dwyane Wade.
--How and why the Denver Nuggets Franchise has repeatedly fooled the public, and possibly themselves for that matter. (No, we still have not completely finished with the Nuggets, thanks to how successful they were in 2008-09, albeit there was no chance of a Championship; Continuing, much done already)
--How and why much of what you may think you know about Allen Iverson is dead wrong (Continuing, much done already)
--How and why the playoffs are something completely different from the regular season, and why your team may be simply not prepared for them despite a lot of regular season wins

A SMALL SAMPLE OF ALREADY COMPLETED QUEST FOR THE RING REAL ZONE TOPICS
--How and why Carmelo Anthony has been downsized due to a quest for "well-roundedness," and why this is really bad
--How and why the owner of the Nuggets shortchanged and cheated his team out of a possible Championship
--How and why being physical alone can not win you a Championship
--How and why the Nuggets' high fouling defense will take them only so far
--How and why George Karl is doing more harm than good with respect to J.R. Smith
--How and why George Karl's obsession with personalities is wrong and bad for any team
--How and why George Karl and the Nuggets can not win in the playoffs (2007, 2008) or a West final (2009). If Quest commits a foul, we own up to it, as we do right here: we thought the Nuggets could not win in the playoffs in 2009. They did win 10 games before being eliminated by the Lakers in the West final, so in response we corrected our evaluation of what you can do with the Nuggets' unique 2009 approach to basketball without, however, going overboard.
--How and why George Karl cheats the fans and the franchise out of performance and development of "reserve" players
--How and why playmaking is so important, probably more than you think, and how you manage playmakers correctly.
--How and why you have probably been fooled regarding the Nuggets' 2008 off-season and their 2008-09 defense

UNIQUE SITE DESIGN
The Quest is organized in a completely different way from what you are used to on the internet. We have combined the best features of the blog and the conventional web site formats, the latter being the norm for large organizations. However, since we do not like the idea of using flash to "wow" visitors, we do not use flash except within video and other discrete components. So we are state of the art in terms of expanding the power of visitors to get exactly what they want very quickly, but we do not have the latest flash gadgetry just to "keep up with the Joneses". More broadly, you will find that Quest for the Ring never seeks to keep up with the Joneses, simply because the Joneses never had the nerve and the intelligence to do what we do.

2009: A PROFESSIONAL ORGANIZATION COMES TO QUEST
Just before the 2009-10 season tipped, the very large number of features and links to important resources were strategically reorganized and placed within an easy to use and clearly labelled section system. So ended the era of the rapidly developed, sprawling and slightly disorganized Quest, and so began the era of the big but under careful control and extremely well organized and professional Quest for the Ring.

The Quest Home Page consists of numerous types of content, organized carefully into the new sections as of November 2009. Features can be any educational and / or entertaining thing you can think of, including everything from music players to videos to photos to breaking NBA news readers to top teams performance breakdown pages.

Quest for the Ring has a world class link system for those who know what they are looking for and wish to find and engage the appropriate link, But the Quest visitor does not HAVE to hunt for links to have an intelligent and entertaining experience. The Quest home page is big enough and chock loaded enough that link hunting is not absolutely necessary the way it normally is at many other basketball sites.

THERE MUST BE TEN WAYS TO READ REPORTS [PAUL SIMON LOL]
There are close to ten ways to find out about, select, and read Quest Reports! The standard, traditional blog presentation is available as one of the many ways to choose, access, and read reports. On the Home Page, only one report loads in the traditional format in order to keep this page as quick loading as possible.
See the "Total Freedom of Navigation" section for complete details about how to find, choose, and read reports.

One key place to find Older Reports is on sequentially numbered url's thequestforthering2.blogspot.com, thequestforthering3.blogspot.com, and so forth.

THE QUEST USER GUIDE VERSUS an about page
Other sites most often have undeveloped and limited in scope "about pages" which is usually all they have for what we call a "User Guide". Our User Guide material is a vast improvement, quantitatively and qualitatively, over a mere "about page" While many other sites don't help their visitors to make the best use of the content, we do. Also, the User Guide is chock loaded with invitations to visitors to participate in all kinds of ways, including for example advertising for free, link exchange, and getting a team site supported by Quest.

MOST RECENT LEAGUE WIDE REAL PLAYER RATINGS

Note: This is generally a once a year, end of season Report. For many teams and players, more recent ratings are often available.

NBA REAL PLAYER RATINGS
2009-10 REGULAR SEASON

POSITION AND TEAM CODES
In the Real Player and related ratings shown for the League, two codes follow each players' name (and before his rating). The first code tells you the players' team and the second one tells you his position.

TEAM CODES
ATLA Atlanta Hawks
BOST Boston Celtics
CHAR Charlotte Bobcats
CHIC Chicago Bulls
CLEV Cleveland Cavaliers
DALL Dallas Mavericks
DENV Denver Nuggets
DETR Detroit Pistons
GOLS Golden State Warriors
HOUS Houston Rockets
INDI Indiana Pacers
LACL Los Angeles Clippers
LALK Los Angeles Lakers
MEMP Memphis Grizzlies
MIAM Miami Heat
MILW Milwaukee Bucks
MINN Minnesota Timberwolves
NJRS New Jersey Nets
NORL New Orleans Hornets
NWYR New York Knicks
OKLA Oklahoma Thunder
ORLA Orlando Magic
PHIL Philadelphia 76'ers
PHNX Phoenix Suns
PORT Portland Trailblazers
SACR Sacramento Kings
SANA San Antonio Spurs
TORO Toronto Raptors
UTAH Utah Jazz
WASH Washington Wizards

POSITION CODES
PG Point Guard
SG Shooting Guard
SF Small Forward
PF Power Forward
C Center

SCALE FOR REGULAR SEASON REAL PLAYER RATINGS
Perfect for all Practical Purposes / Major Historic Super Star 1.100 and more
Historic Super Star 1.000 1.099
Super Star 0.900 0.999
A Star Player / A well above normal starter 0.820 0.899
Very Good Player / A solid starter 0.760 0.819
Major Role Player / Good enough to start 0.700 0.759
Good Role Player / Often a good 6th man 0.640 0.699
Satisfactory Role Player / Preferably should not start 0.580 0.639
Marginal Role Player / Generally should not start 0.520 0.579
Poor Player / Should never start 0.460 0.519
Very Poor Player 0.400 0.459
Extremely Poor Player .399 and less

NBA REAL PLAYER RATINGS
2009-10 REGULAR SEASON
--Shows the real quality of players
--Includes all tracked actions and also includes untracked or hidden defending
--The average Real Player Rating for all players who play 300 minutes or more is about .700.
--All players who have played at least 300 minutes are included here and in all other ratings to follow in coming days

MAJOR HISTORIC SUPERSTARS
1 LeBron James CLEV SF 1.382
2 Tim Duncan SANA PF 1.254
3 Chris Paul NORL PG 1.202
4 Dwight Howard ORLA C 1.121
5 Andrew Bogut MILW C 1.112

HISTORIC SUPERSTARS
6 Steve Nash PHNX PG 1.095
7 Jason Kidd DALL PG 1.092
8 Rajon Rondo BOST PG 1.084
9 Deron Williams UTAH PG 1.076
10 Dwyane Wade MIAM SG 1.075
11 Marcus Camby LACL C 1.071
12 Pau Gasol LALK PF 1.065
13 Greg Oden PORT C 1.060
14 Kevin Durant OKLA SF 1.051
15 Dirk Nowitzki DALL PF 1.034
16 Josh Smith ATLA SF 1.033
17 Kevin Garnett BOST PF 1.033
18 Manu Ginobili SANA SG 1.023
19 Kobe Bryant LALK SG 1.005

SUPERSTARS
20 Carlos Boozer UTAH PF 0.994
21 Lamar Odom LALK PF 0.982
22 Andrei Kirilenko UTAH SF 0.976
23 Chris Bosh TORO PF 0.972
24 David Lee NWYR C 0.971
25 Al Horford ATLA C 0.970
26 Marcus Camby PORT C 0.967
27 Jameer Nelson ORLA PG 0.959
28 Joakim Noah CHIC C 0.955
29 John Salmons MILW SF 0.937
30 Andrew Bynum LALK C 0.936
31 Troy Murphy INDI PF 0.934
32 Kevin Love MINN PF 0.934
33 Anderson Varejao CLEV C 0.933
34 Brendan Haywood DALL C 0.929
35 Vince Carter ORLA SG 0.928
36 Gerald Wallace CHAR SF 0.918
37 Sergio Rodriguez SACR PG 0.908
38 Tyrus Thomas CHIC PF 0.904
39 Derrick Rose CHIC PG 0.903

STARS
40 Baron Davis LACL PG 0.899
41 Russell Westbrook OKLA PG 0.897
42 Zach Randolph MEMP PF 0.885
43 Danny Granger INDI SF 0.885
44 Marc Gasol MEMP C 0.885
45 Joe Johnson ATLA SG 0.883
46 Chauncey Billups DENV PG 0.883
47 Roy Hibbert INDI C 0.880
48 Ben Wallace DETR C 0.877
49 Andre Miller PORT PG 0.874
50 Carmelo Anthony DENV SF 0.874
51 Brandon Jennings MILW PG 0.870
52 Tyrus Thomas CHAR PF 0.870
53 A.J. Price INDI PG 0.868
54 Paul Millsap UTAH PF 0.866
55 Craig Smith LACL PF 0.865
56 Samuel Dalembert PHIL C 0.864
57 Andre Iguodala PHIL SG 0.858
58 Raymond Felton CHAR PG 0.857
59 Delonte West CLEV SG 0.856
60 Al Jefferson MINN C 0.856
61 Eric Maynor OKLA PG 0.856
62 Serge Ibaka OKLA PF 0.855
63 Nene Hilario DENV C 0.852
64 Chris Andersen DENV PF 0.849
65 Shaquille O'Neal CLEV C 0.842
66 Brandon Roy PORT SG 0.842
67 Ryan Anderson ORLA PF 0.840
68 Antonio McDyess SANA PF 0.839
69 Tony Parker SANA PG 0.837
70 Paul Pierce BOST SF 0.836
71 Mo Williams CLEV PG 0.835
72 Kyle Lowry HOUS PG 0.835
73 Ersan Ilyasova MILW SF 0.828
74 Amare Stoudemire PHNX PF 0.828
75 Luke Ridnour MILW PG 0.827
76 Erick Dampier DALL C 0.826
77 Tyreke Evans SACR PG 0.825
78 Andris Biedrins GOLS C 0.825
79 Kyle Korver UTAH SG 0.824
80 Anthony Randolph GOLS PF 0.820

VERY GOOD PLAYERS / SOLID STARTERS
81 Eric Maynor UTAH PG 0.819
82 Carlos Arroyo MIAM PG 0.819
83 Antawn Jamison CLEV PF 0.819
84 Nazr Mohammed CHAR C 0.818
85 Luol Deng CHIC SF 0.817
86 Dorell Wright MIAM SG 0.817
87 LaMarcus Aldridge PORT PF 0.817
88 Carl Landry HOUS PF 0.816
89 Luis Scola HOUS PF 0.816
90 Nick Collison OKLA PF 0.812
91 Carlos Delfino MILW SG 0.809
92 Kendrick Perkins BOST C 0.807
93 Jermaine O'Neal MIAM C 0.805
94 Nate Robinson NWYR PG 0.804
95 Goran Dragic PHNX PG 0.803
96 Mike Bibby ATLA PG 0.803
97 Stephen Curry GOLS PG 0.803
98 Mehmet Okur UTAH C 0.800
99 Jose Calderon TORO PG 0.797
100 Jason Terry DALL SG 0.791
101 Ronnie Price UTAH PG 0.784
102 DeJuan Blair SANA PF 0.784
103 Chris Kaman LACL C 0.783
104 Shaun Livingston WASH PG 0.783
105 Joel Przybilla PORT C 0.782
106 David West NORL PF 0.781
107 John Salmons CHIC SF 0.776
108 Matt Barnes ORLA SF 0.775
109 Darren Collison NORL PG 0.775
110 Ronny Turiaf GOLS C 0.774
111 Udonis Haslem MIAM PF 0.774
112 Shawn Marion DALL SF 0.772
113 Jason Williams ORLA PG 0.771
114 Keyon Dooling NJRS PG 0.771
115 Andray Blatche WASH C 0.770
116 James Harden OKLA SG 0.770
117 Brook Lopez NJRS C 0.770
118 Ray Allen BOST SG 0.770
119 Amir Johnson TORO SF 0.769
120 Ty Lawson DENV PG 0.768
121 Beno Udrih SACR PG 0.768
122 Chuck Hayes HOUS PF 0.765
123 Matt Bonner SANA PF 0.763
124 Reggie Evans TORO PF 0.763
125 Gilbert Arenas WASH PG 0.760

MAJOR ROLE PLAYERS / GOOD ENOUGH TO START
126 Zydrunas Ilgauskas CLEV C 0.758
127 Rasheed Wallace BOST PF 0.757
128 Lou Williams PHIL SG 0.756
129 Stephen Jackson CHAR SF 0.754
130 Dan Gadzuric MILW C 0.754
131 Jamario Moon CLEV SF 0.754
132 Ron Artest LALK SF 0.752
133 Rodney Stuckey DETR PG 0.749
134 Shelden Williams BOST PF 0.748
135 Oleksiy Pecherov MINN C 0.748
136 Aaron Brooks HOUS PG 0.747
137 Boris Diaw CHAR PF 0.746
138 C.J. Watson GOLS PG 0.746
139 Brendan Haywood WASH C 0.744
140 Emeka Okafor NORL C 0.742
141 Taj Gibson CHIC PF 0.741
142 J.R. Smith DENV SG 0.738
143 Mike Miller WASH SF 0.732
144 Channing Frye PHNX C 0.731
145 Louis Amundson PHNX PF 0.731
146 Elton Brand PHIL PF 0.726
147 D.J. Mbenga LALK C 0.725
148 Tayshaun Prince DETR SF 0.724
149 Francisco Garcia SACR SG 0.724
150 Tyler Hansbrough INDI PF 0.724
151 Trevor Ariza HOUS SG 0.723
152 Allen Iverson PHIL SG 0.722
153 Rashard Lewis ORLA PF 0.721
154 Richard Jefferson SANA SF 0.721
155 Luc Richard Mbah a Moute MILW SF 0.721
156 Jamal Crawford ATLA SG 0.721
157 Brad Miller CHIC C 0.720
158 Josh Boone NJRS C 0.718
159 Jason Richardson PHNX SG 0.718
160 Sebastian Telfair LACL PG 0.717
161 Marvin Williams ATLA PF 0.716
162 David Andersen HOUS C 0.715
163 Caron Butler DALL SF 0.715
164 Michael Beasley MIAM PF 0.714
165 George Hill SANA PG 0.713
166 Ronnie Brewer UTAH SG 0.712
167 D.J. Augustin CHAR PG 0.712
168 Monta Ellis GOLS PG 0.711
169 Sean May SACR PF 0.710
170 Anthony Tolliver GOLS PF 0.709
171 Kenyon Martin DENV PF 0.709
172 Tyson Chandler CHAR C 0.709
173 Rodrigue Beaubois DALL PG 0.707
174 Stephen Jackson GOLS SF 0.704
175 Shane Battier HOUS SF 0.703
176 Stephen Graham CHAR SF 0.702
177 Mike Conley MEMP PG 0.702
178 Earl Watson INDI PG 0.701
179 T.J. Ford INDI PG 0.700

GOOD ROLE PLAYERS / OFTEN GOOD 6TH MAN PLAYERS
180 Ramon Sessions MINN PG 0.699
181 Corey Maggette GOLS SF 0.699
182 Marcin Gortat ORLA PF 0.698
183 Terrence Williams NJRS SG 0.698
184 Jarrett Jack TORO PG 0.698
185 James Singleton WASH SF 0.696
186 JaVale McGee WASH C 0.694
187 Jose Juan Barea DALL PG 0.694
188 Marcus Thornton NORL SG 0.693
189 Daequan Cook MIAM SG 0.691
190 Jordan Farmar LALK PG 0.689
191 Kirk Hinrich CHIC PG 0.689
192 Carl Landry SACR PF 0.689
193 Shannon Brown LALK PG 0.687
194 Anthony Carter DENV PG 0.686
195 Jason Thompson SACR PF 0.686
196 Mike Dunleavy INDI SF 0.686
197 Robin Lopez PHNX C 0.684
198 Spencer Hawes SACR C 0.680
199 Rudy Fernandez PORT SG 0.678
200 Drew Gooden LACL PF 0.678
201 Steve Blake LACL PG 0.677
202 Bobby Simmons NJRS SF 0.676
203 Larry Hughes NWYR SG 0.675
204 Jerry Stackhouse MILW SF 0.675
205 Quentin Richardson MIAM SG 0.675
206 Rudy Gay MEMP SF 0.675
207 Darko Milicic MINN C 0.674
208 Drew Gooden DALL PF 0.674
209 Reggie Williams GOLS SF 0.673
210 Ronald Murray CHAR SG 0.671
211 Grant Hill PHNX SF 0.669
212 Nate Robinson BOST PG 0.668
213 Travis Outlaw LACL SF 0.668
214 Steve Blake PORT PG 0.667
215 Devin Harris NJRS PG 0.665
216 Antawn Jamison WASH PF 0.665
217 Danilo Gallinari NWYR SF 0.664
218 Wilson Chandler NWYR SF 0.664
219 Gerald Henderson CHAR SG 0.664
220 Tony Allen BOST SG 0.663
221 Kyrylo Fesenko UTAH C 0.662
222 Anthony Morrow GOLS SG 0.661
223 Jordan Hill HOUS PF 0.661
224 Jared Dudley PHNX SF 0.660
225 Daniel Gibson CLEV PG 0.660
226 Jeff Green OKLA PF 0.659
227 Josh McRoberts INDI PF 0.659
228 Anthony Johnson ORLA PG 0.658
229 J.J. Redick ORLA SG 0.658
230 Al Harrington NWYR PF 0.655
231 Luther Head INDI PG 0.654
232 Nicolas Batum PORT SF 0.653
233 Theo Ratliff CHAR C 0.650
234 Mario Chalmers MIAM PG 0.648
235 Brandon Bass ORLA PF 0.648
236 Kris Humphries NJRS PF 0.646
237 Chris Duhon NWYR PG 0.643
238 Nenad Krstic OKLA C 0.642
239 Kris Humphries DALL PF 0.642

SATISFACTORY ROLE PLAYERS / USUALLY DO NOT START
240 Rasho Nesterovic TORO C 0.637
241 Hedo Turkoglu TORO SF 0.635
242 Johan Petro DENV C 0.635
243 Randy Foye WASH PG 0.634
244 Jrue Holiday PHIL PG 0.633
245 Mickael Pietrus ORLA SG 0.631
246 Jared Jeffries NWYR PF 0.627
247 Leandro Barbosa PHNX SG 0.626
248 Joel Anthony MIAM C 0.624
249 O.J. Mayo MEMP SG 0.622
250 Chase Budinger HOUS SF 0.621
251 Roger Mason SANA SG 0.619
252 Caron Butler WASH SF 0.617
253 Peja Stojakovic NORL SF 0.615
254 Marreese Speights PHIL PF 0.613
255 Jamaal Tinsley MEMP PG 0.613
256 Bobby Brown NORL PG 0.611
257 Jonas Jerebko DETR SF 0.610
258 Omri Casspi SACR SF 0.609
259 Kurt Thomas MILW PF 0.608
260 Thaddeus Young PHIL SF 0.607
261 Brandon Rush INDI SG 0.606
262 Hasheem Thabeet MEMP C 0.605
263 Damien Wilkins MINN SG 0.601
264 Rodney Carney PHIL SF 0.601
265 Earl Boykins WASH PG 0.599
266 J.J. Hickson CLEV PF 0.599
267 Willie Green PHIL SG 0.598
268 Anthony Parker CLEV SG 0.596
269 Jamaal Magloire MIAM C 0.594
270 Wesley Matthews UTAH SG 0.592
271 Devean George GOLS SG 0.592
272 Richard Hamilton DETR SG 0.592
273 Kevin Martin SACR SG 0.591
274 Andrea Bargnani TORO C 0.591
275 Ryan Gomes MINN SF 0.589
276 Thabo Sefolosha OKLA SF 0.589
277 Rafer Alston NJRS PG 0.589
278 Tracy McGrady NWYR SG 0.588
279 Marco Belinelli TORO SG 0.587
280 Michael Finley BOST SF 0.585
281 Marcus Williams MEMP PG 0.583
282 Martell Webster PORT SG 0.583
283 Charlie Villanueva DETR PF 0.582

MARGINAL ROLE PLAYERS / RARELY START
284 Derek Fisher LALK PG 0.578
285 Jannero Pargo CHIC PG 0.577
286 Toney Douglas NWYR PG 0.577
287 Chris Hunter GOLS PF 0.576
288 Derrick Brown CHAR SF 0.575
289 Yi Jianlian NJRS PF 0.575
290 Nathan Jawai MINN PF 0.575
291 Ime Udoka SACR SG 0.574
292 Sergio Rodriguez NWYR PG 0.574
293 Arron Afflalo DENV SG 0.573
294 Kevin Martin HOUS SG 0.572
295 Hakim Warrick MILW PF 0.571
296 Al Thornton WASH SF 0.569
297 Will Bynum DETR PG 0.568
298 Jonny Flynn MINN PG 0.568
299 James Posey NORL SF 0.564
300 Mikki Moore GOLS C 0.561
301 Darius Songaila NORL PF 0.561
302 Jerryd Bayless PORT PG 0.556
303 Jon Brockman SACR PF 0.554
304 Sasha Vujacic LALK SG 0.554
305 Dante Cunningham PORT SF 0.551
306 Michael Redd MILW SG 0.551
307 Eric Gordon LACL SG 0.550
308 C.J. Miles UTAH SF 0.549
309 Al Thornton LACL SF 0.547
310 Julian Wright NORL SF 0.545
311 Jeff Teague ATLA PG 0.544
312 Marquis Daniels BOST SG 0.543
313 Dahntay Jones INDI SG 0.542
314 Chris Douglas-Roberts NJRS SG 0.541
315 Zaza Pachulia ATLA C 0.538
316 Etan Thomas OKLA C 0.538
317 Sonny Weems TORO SG 0.537
318 Devin Brown NORL SG 0.533
319 Jason Maxiell DETR PF 0.532
320 Bill Walker NWYR SG 0.532
321 Courtney Lee NJRS SG 0.528
322 James Jones MIAM SF 0.525
323 Donte Greene SACR SF 0.524
324 Kenny Thomas SACR PF 0.523
325 Wayne Ellington MINN SG 0.521
326 Juwan Howard PORT PF 0.520

POOR PLAYERS / SHOULD NEVER START
327 Charlie Bell MILW SG 0.518
328 Corey Brewer MINN SF 0.518
329 Hakim Warrick CHIC PF 0.514
330 DeAndre Jordan LACL C 0.512
331 Rasual Butler LACL SG 0.509
332 Glen Davis BOST PF 0.508
333 Sam Young MEMP SF 0.508
334 Austin Daye DETR SF 0.507
335 Ronald Murray CHIC SG 0.504
336 Vladimir Radmanovic GOLS SF 0.494
337 Solomon Jones INDI PF 0.493
338 Ben Gordon DETR SG 0.491
339 James Johnson CHIC PF 0.487
340 Rafer Alston MIAM PG 0.482
341 Eduardo Najera DALL PF 0.482
342 Chucky Atkins DETR PG 0.477
343 Earl Clark PHNX SF 0.474
344 Joey Graham DENV SF 0.473
345 Fabricio Oberto WASH C 0.468
346 Jason Smith PHIL PF 0.466
347 Andres Nocioni SACR SF 0.464
348 Jared Jeffries HOUS PF 0.462
349 Nick Young WASH SG 0.462
350 Maurice Evans ATLA SF 0.462
351 Keith Bogans SANA SG 0.462
352 Josh Howard DALL SF 0.460

VERY POOR PLAYERS
353 Eddie House NWYR SG 0.454
354 Joe Smith ATLA PF 0.453
355 Kwame Brown DETR C 0.452
356 Antoine Wright TORO SF 0.451
357 Darrell Arthur MEMP PF 0.443
358 Jarvis Hayes NJRS SF 0.438
359 Ricky Davis LACL SF 0.437
360 Mardy Collins LACL PG 0.436
361 Malik Hairston SANA SG 0.433
362 Jeff Pendergraph PORT PF 0.432
363 Jermaine Taylor HOUS SG 0.428
364 Chris Wilcox DETR C 0.417
365 DeMar DeRozan TORO SG 0.414
366 Jodie Meeks MILW SG 0.413
367 Quinton Ross DALL SF 0.406

EXTREMELY POOR PLAYERS
368 Morris Peterson NORL SG 0.394
369 Josh Powell LALK PF 0.386
370 Jason Kapono PHIL SG 0.383
371 Jawad Williams CLEV SF 0.369
372 DeMarre Carroll MEMP SF 0.357
373 Ryan Hollins MINN C 0.351
374 Steve Novak LACL SF 0.345
375 Trenton Hassell NJRS SF 0.342
376 Brian Scalabrine BOST C 0.329
377 Michael Finley SANA SF 0.321
378 Sasha Pavlovic MINN SG 0.314
379 DeShawn Stevenson WASH SG 0.287
380 Malik Allen DENV PF 0.282
381 DaJuan Summers DETR SF 0.266

SCALE FOR REGULAR SEASON REAL PLAYER RATINGS
Perfect for all Practical Purposes / Major Historic Super Star 1.100 and more
Historic Super Star 1.000 1.099
Super Star 0.900 0.999
A Star Player / A well above normal starter 0.820 0.899
Very Good Player / A solid starter 0.760 0.819
Major Role Player / Good enough to start 0.700 0.759
Good Role Player / Often a good 6th man 0.640 0.699
Satisfactory Role Player / Usually do not start 0.580 0.639
Marginal Role Player / Rarely start 0.520 0.579
Poor Player / Should never start 0.460 0.519
Very Poor Player 0.400 0.459
Extremely Poor Player .399 and less

AVERAGE RATINGS BY POSITION
Not all positions are created equal. These are the average ratings by position among all NBA players who play 300 minutes or more. There are very few small forwards and shooting guards who are superstars. Most (but definitely not all) superstars are players who can play point guard, power forward, or center.

Point Guard .750
Shooting Guard .640
Small Forward .640
Power Forward .720
Center .750
All Positions / All Players (NBA Overall Average) .700

PLAYOFF GRADE PLAYERS
Playoff Grade Players have ratings of .560 and higher. Players with ratings below .560 should not play in the playoffs unless the team is forced to play them so that they have two players at a position and/or so that the team has at least eight players playing in the playoffs and/or because the coach is absolutely certain the low rating player will play better in the playoffs than he did in the regular season.

REGULAR SEASON STARTING PLAYERS
All starters on all teams should have ratings of .575 and higher. If a team has no player at a postion with at least a .575 rating, then it is extremely deficient at that position due to injuries or due to management incompetence.

THE ALL IMPORTANT, AWARD WINNING REAL PLAYER RATINGS USER GUIDE
The above are a few hightlights from the User Guide for Real Player Ratings. For complete details regarding how the Real Player Ratings are designed, how and why they work, and how exactly you can use them, see the User Guide. The User Guide for Real Player Ratings is a necessary reference for anyone who wants to truly understand the value of, the validity of, and the ways you can use the Real Player Rating performance measures.

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